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The video has chapters, so you can easily re-watch a specific part of the conversation.

• 0:00 Introduction
• 01:22 Who is Bertrand? 
• 03:09 The Role of Spirituality in Business and Design
• 03:39 Intuition and Professional Growth: Bertrand's Insights
• 04:49 Creating Space for Reflection in a Fast-Paced World
• 06:17 Spirituality vs. Religion: Understanding the Distinction
• 08:07 Integrating Spirituality into Professional Settings
• 09:02 Practical Examples of Spirituality in Workshops
• 13:05 Challenges and Opportunities in Bringing Spirituality to Business
• 26:15 Learning from Failures: Adapting Spiritual Practices in Work
• 47:58 Closing Words: A Call to Grounded Practice

Summary

Service design and spirituality don’t often mix, but Bertrand and Daniele’s conversation reveals the powerful blend of these two fields. Their discussion explores how spirituality and intuition can deeply impact service design, giving professionals a fresh perspective.

Practical intuition and spirituality exercices mentionned

1. Guided mindfulness exercices from Headspace
2. Breath work breaks to let people find focus 
3. Role play of users or stakeholders
4. Walk in nature for inspiration

Key authors mentioned:

1. Adam Lawrence: Workshop facilitation with touches of psychology, intuition and spirituality
3. Augusto Boal: Theater based approaches

Automated transcript

## Introduction: The Fusion of Service Design and Spirituality

**Bertrand:** Hello, everybody. Hello, Daniel. for inviting me. 

**Daniele:** Thank you so much that we could make this event happen today.

I'd love maybe for people to know a little bit more about you, Bertrand. 

## Who is Bertrand? 

**Daniele:** Maybe you can tell us a little, a few words about what you do, what's your relationship with service design and your relationship with spirituality and how these two worlds mash up in your life.

I'll try, 

**Bertrand:** okay. I think I'm a bit like you and like a lot of people. We are a bit Swiss knife. Because we, in your different experiences, professional or personal, we have tried to do a lot of things in the best way. That's what I did. I began far away as a freelancer. Art Director, and then I became what we called in the past years a Usability Expert, an Ergodome, as we say in French.

And I used to work with people, with human people with feelings, with emotions but also with the spirit. That's why we call the session about spiritual spirituality. Everybody as a spirit, as a, as we know we have also a mind which leads usually or professional activities.

And that's why I tried this last year to introduce more vision of values, maybe ethics regarding all different activities we can do in service design in UX, etc. That's the goal. That's the way I try to mix, to mash up, as you said, Daniele, this different part of us as human beings.

**Daniele:** Awesome. And so we had already a bit of this conversation in another setting. So I already know where I have to point fingers at, which is very cool. 

## The Role of Spirituality in Business and Design

**Daniele:** May I ask, how do you bring this idea of spirituality? In the business world, because I know you are someone who works with big business, normal businesses.

So you're used to the boardroom and these very, Excel spreadsheet like way of thinking. And so how do you bring that? into the spirituality, intuition into a world where it's usually numbers, KPIs and spreadsheets. 

**Bertrand:** Yeah. 

## Intuition and Professional Growth: Bertrand's Insights

**Bertrand:** First of all, it arrives late in my life, in my professional life.

When I was a teenager, as a lot of us, I have some feelings about things some intuition that things will, could happen like this or like that. And sometimes we listen to it or not. But with the experience, with the age, I realized that usually if I listen to that, the thing And that's an interesting thing because we are always in a kind of hurry to do tasks, to do activities, to run workshops, etc.

If we take time just to to sit and to observe and to feel, that's the way we can change our mind on the professional activities. To introduce feelings, uh, good things in what we do. And the way we react with others. 

## Creating Space for Reflection in a Fast-Paced World

**Bertrand:** I 

**Daniele:** love how you bring this idea of kind of this tension that we have, a lot of our jargon, sprint, running workshops, getting shit done, it's very active, we are usually in this active mode in service design, and there is not much relax, inspiration seeing things happen, observing, feeling, and I feel that To me, from what I feel is that you say the spirituality aspect is maybe just the first level will be just to accept that it's not all about running, but that there is a moment of break in rhythm that can be interesting and that it can be valuable to just create moments where people are not in action, but are in just the moment.

It's going to sound a bit fancy, but being, where they are just there and they can feel something and they don't have to do something.

**Bertrand:** Yeah, it's an interesting thing because we can see a lot of articles and conferences about creating the future, imaging the things in two years, et cetera. I don't say we don't have to do that. I just want to focus on the fact sometimes just to be in the present moments, we can observe and feel again things we couldn't get.

## Spirituality vs. Religion: Understanding the Distinction

**Bertrand:** In touch with our human body and emotions, et cetera if you're, you are in a hurry to, to do that that, that's a thing interesting, just I just want to come back about the, your introduction about religion. Usually spirituality is linked with religion religion, if we go back to, to its roots.

It means. In Latin, religare, to link things. So if we put apart the pure religions things, religion is also a way to connect people and things together. Okay. Just put that aside. So yeah. And about the feelings, about your intuitions. I'm sure a lot of people here will see after the when we will go for the exchange with all together, but we have sometimes experienced, or usually maybe we have kind of people like medium or we'll see, but it's in the personal activity.

We there present this in the professional way. We all wear, no, not all, but usually we wear masks. The social mask, the way to be perceived as a good person, as an organization wants to see you. We cut off this aspect of first. And one of the objectives of this session, of this discussion, is about that.

## Integrating Spirituality into Professional Settings

**Bertrand:** How? If we agree with what we feel, can we translate it in a professional life and also manage the barrier, the problem we can have with people who don't understand this, 

**Daniele:** who are 

**Bertrand:** people who don't understand this? against this kind of aspects. 

**Daniele:** Absolutely. And so you see that I didn't ask you the question about defining spirituality or religion because I want to be in the very practice side.

And I think that's, I think the definition will slowly, emerge from our conversation. And I think at the end, we might arrive to a bit of a definition. So that's by design. I'd like to know, do you have. 

## Practical Examples of Spirituality in Workshops

**Daniele:** Examples of how you do bring spirituality in your own work, or in workshops, or in your consulting practice.

How do you make this happen? What are tiny things that you do, that you feel are, for you, moments of spirituality within your consulting work? 

**Bertrand:** I will answer to your question, but just before I will make a focus on intuition. The best example is during workshops. You meet a group for the first time.

Individuals, you don't really know, you can have some kind of judgments when you see them, how they, what they wear, what they say, etc. Many things with the physical aspects. But, with this, With these feelings, you are able to understand and to create a vision of what the group will be, or could be. And regarding that, you can put some moments some activities like Energizer or things like this in a special way.

When you did to bring all the group together. together in order to be to run some tasks that are difficult for them. You can create some moments with the physical engagements and also with the spiritual engagements. But of course, you We don't call it like that. An example, if you want to help people understand a problem you are working on, you can ask them to to stand up and to be in some cycle you define on the ground.

And you ask them to move and to feel what when they are in a cycle about transformation or it's not important and what they feel when they are in the cycle. And then after that, they go. In the other cycle and now what are they feeling? And after that, you are able to organize the group for the activities.

The activities they will do, but also you realize that kind of magical thing happen because we are, and once again, human beings with a body. Mind and Emotions, and when I feel this kind of intuition, I'm able to create to add the groups to go in a specific way to, to work with this.

**Daniele:** I love how you use it as an introduction point. I think that's, that's very smart, to, to use it as a And the thing also for you to read the room, and for others also to, to read the room. So it's like a very smart way to bring it without bringing it, a lot of of my own practice of service design, is often to, To just do the work and not mention the work, where it's, when people ask, what is this work that we do, then I say, obviously it's service design, but it doesn't need, to have, to be explicit it.

And I think this is also something that often happens, when, with this, with these intuition bits, sometimes we just. Run them and then people then feel, oh, this is very smart. I loved it. How would you call that? And say, oh, this, I would call it, mindfulness. I would call it spirituality, intuition.

And then it's oh, okay, that's okay. I wouldn't have linked these names with the activity that I led. And I think this is a very smart way, to create the experience of the spirituality instead of the definition of it, which is a very smart way. I'm 

## Challenges and Opportunities in Bringing Spirituality to Business

**Bertrand:** not sure organizations and managers are ready for that, even if I meet the, oh, sorry, I meet a lot of of head of of departments that react to that.

And sometimes I came after, after a workshop or a session and asking me what did I do? And, tell me that they feel the same thing. They wanted to introduce this other way of working, of interacting with people. But, usually, it's difficult for them. Because the processes and all the structure, The mental models are not made for that.

**Daniele:** Absolutely. And there is a thing that resonates with me in what you're saying, which is like a transition point, where it's hard to go from, processes which are very directive, which are recipe like to something which is more intuition. And I feel there is something in the middle, which I find quite interesting.

So I'm an avid user of an app which is called Headspace, which is a meditation and mindfulness app. And I find very interesting because it's, it does that gap very gently, where it brings like the recipe like thing, where it just tells you what to try to do, so it it's very reassuring for people who are used to recipes and processes.

But it brings you slowly to a more intuition state, and I feel there is a very interesting potential there for business to bring these elements of spirituality, intuition, in a bit of a structured and process like way. Because It has then a flavor that is already known. It's if you add vanilla on top of something new, , it's it's still new, but it's still a bit reassuring because you still understand that there is vanilla. And from what I've seen, people react to it quite well. I've used it just a few weeks ago in a workshop with with an absolutely non-religious, non-spiritual setting, but just.

And I just showed them, oh, there is this research about mindfulness that shows that apparently from studies, mindfulness leads to better creativity. Obviously, I want to use whatever is the best thing to get the most creativity. So we're going to use that, and framed it that way.

It, it was a very, I felt it was a kind of a good translation of what I was trying to do, where it's contextualized why we're doing it. And I think this is sometimes a bit of danger that we do stuff without contextualizing them. And then people like. Why are we doing this? And that little contextualization is, can be sometimes helpful.

So I'm quite interested. How do you contextualize also this kind of value of intuition, spirituality in your own work? What do you use to, to let people understand, ah, this has value? 

**Bertrand:** Usually I don't use context for that. I use context for the task I have to run, but I'm, maybe it's something I have to work on, but I just propose activities during what we have to do.

And these activities sometimes are a bit surprising for the participants. But usually they don't ask or they don't resist to that. Because we have worked the mood of the group run a new psychology , and then it's quite easy to introduce this with respect of course and not in a radical way, as we said, we, we don't introduce anything from religious, from dogma but just.

things with people, loving people, with others who are ready to receive and to give also. That's the interesting point. I remember a session in Service Design, we were working with a big group and it wasn't so easy to modulate speech. But the different activities, some people were how to say they were not aligned with the vision of of the group and it began to be a big mess.

So I stopped all the activities, so I trashed my program and I just proposed them to do a silent moment. In a cycle, so 30 people in a cycle, and just close the eyes and do some breathing work. And after maybe 10, 15 seconds, I asked them to open their eyes and the volunteers wanted to share what they felt.

Were invited to do that and to express positive or negative things. That was the goal. And so they, they dare to say a lot of things and also to say, Hey, you you told me this and I didn't appreciate that, and people were able to answer, but it was maybe, oh, I'm sure. Maybe it was because they took time to do nothing.

And just go back in in yourself and contact the body, the emotions, the breathing, et cetera.

**Daniele:** It's very inspiring, I'm going to take a few power points. Basically, what I'm trying to do is I'm dissecting, the different elements that you are you're giving me one, which I really think interesting is this notion of invitation, which is having, it's very gentle.

It's everybody, is asked to be inside it, which is a thing, that everybody can do, everybody can benefit from, even spiritual, non spiritual, it's a break, everybody can enjoy a break, everybody sleeps. That's the thing that we can ask, but then you do an invitation, which is if you have something to share.

So it's not doing the round where we say, you had you something spiritual to say, but it's rather okay. Okay. Let's listen to the group. So I think this is a very interesting thing. First, it's there is a lot of invitation when it comes with intuition and spirituality, and it's less kind of a task that we're given.

Another thing that I love in what you say is this aspect of short. You didn't say, Oh, we spent one hour in silence with no, we just had 15 seconds, one minute, and already that, brought a quality of people just realizing, oh, I got hurt. This is circling in my head. Why is this circling in my head?

Maybe I got hurt here. Oh, there is something in me that, that needs to be resolved. Oh, I have this idea. Why did it come up before? It's these under the shower moments but showing that it's short and it can work. Another, then two other things that you mentioned that I found very inspiring are the fact that from what I see, you consider spirituality and intuition as weird as any other icebreaker.

We do some icebreakers, where we ask people to jump and, do silly things. It's as silly as that. So why should we need a big introduction? Because we use the silliness and the fun aspect and these aspects to create a bit of an energy, a mood, something, to get people a bit of out of their comfort zone.

So spirituality can be seen as. Being another funny icebreaker in a way. And the final quality I saw in what you said is this cleaning aspect. I heard that you said, Oh, it was a mess. And usually when it's a mess, we that's the Swiss German in me speaking, for people looking from other parts of the world, Swiss German are very well known for their tidiness.

And the, when a Swiss German sees the mess. The first thing that he wants to do is go clean. But I think here what you show, what you showed us is that sometimes in chaos, sometimes it's just better to take a step back and this kind of intuition can then regroup the people and they then they can realize, oh, We got lost somewhere.

I think we all agree we want to go there and it's people helping you to get there and you don't even have to do it yourself, which is quite a smart way to cleaning. Cleaning by silence instead by cleaning, by facilitation, by language, by focus. No, just silence and then suddenly people are back to the focus that we wanted to have.

How do you react to me synthesizing this? 

**Bertrand:** That's a good synthesis. So thank you for that. About the way to ask for science, I know there is A lot of activities like that. You can also go out and walk in a park, if you have a park. Or even go in the streets and just walk two minutes.

And just people are here and could speak, could stay in silence. It's the same thing. You just need to have a little bit more time. So there is no specific recipe for that. That's also the intuition. Sometimes I would never propose this, even if it's a big mess in a group. I could go with a more radical way to ask for silence and explain, asking for explanations.

But when I feel it's easy, it's possible because we ask people in a certain way to do silly things, funny things. Even if you are working, they are able and they are open for that, just finding the good balance. 

**Daniele:** Yeah, absolutely. I think people are much more eager to try new stuff than we, we assume, just people, joining and having to, Write stuff on sticky notes, in capital letters, with a sharpie, that's already like a very disruptive way of working, for most people and for us, it's like standard, but we have to also to remember, that for many people, this is already quite disruptive and that quite disruptive in the sense, not of innovative, but different to what they are used to.

And so that's that's also a very good reminder. 

**Bertrand:** In a professional. Absolutely, because we are surrounded by people, friends, family, who are doing yoga. You guys, spiritual but not religious were doing many activities like that to to find us myself again to slow down the pace of of the everyday everyday activities.

You can. You can go for a walk, you can sit in a church or a mosque, no matter, but people are doing tons of things like that in their personal aspect of their life. So you can bring just some small aspects of that and just to find the good way for helping them to be ready to participate and to feel emotions.

**Daniele:** Absolutely. I feel there is this aspect that you say at the end, which is doing it in a professional way, especially in workshops, in my own, Practice as a workshop guy often, there is a lot of talk before the workshop with the organizers, with the team where, we discuss, oh, what would be comfortable for the team?

What would be challenging in a good way? What is challenging in a bad way? Where we say, no, this is, This is not out of the comfort zone. This is where it's going to be painful, and we have a lot of these conversations in advance where we say, Hey, do you think if we do that, it's going to, it can work in your culture or not?

And we do already that, and I think this is, it's just another tool that we add into that conversation. And and when you ask people, most people are then very happy to say, Oh, sure. If we have the time to have a 15 minute walk in nature, that would be awesome, and and then we say, Hey, but we want them to reuse that inspiration.

And we're going to just do a five minute round to see if someone has something that came up, which we can reuse then back for the business. And people are like, Oh yeah, obviously I would love to, to have that extra value of creativity in the room. Absolutely. 

## Learning from Failures: Adapting Spiritual Practices in Work

**Daniele:** And may I ask, did you try stuff that's backfired?

Is there any moment where you felt like you tried something and you're like Oh, that one didn't went well. And maybe what's the lessons that you learned from it? If there is such a moment in your own practice. 

**Bertrand:** Yeah, it happened just a few times. And I realized. After that, that I wasn't aligned and present during the session.

So maybe I didn't feel enough what was going on. And of course it happens. Some people, During the proposal of moving on war or closing the ice said, no, I don't want, so if there is only one people we could understand, we have to respect that. We just have as facilitator to, to ensure why, because sometimes just the feeling in, in, in their parts and we can sometimes react and.

Yeah. Re engage the person. If not, we can let him abroad not abroad, sorry aside, but it's not good for a group a group efficiency. I stopped when it happened. I stopped the activity and I just proposed to that guy to explain to other, to others what happened for him.

And some people answered what they're feeling and what they were to do that activities. And even some said that it wasn't clear for them to do it. But they accepted due to the group effect, but also because they were curious. And it helps to, to the person to come back and we did it.

But yeah I realized after that I should have worked this this animation. 

**Daniele:** That's interesting that sometimes we bring, we try to bring intuition and spirituality in a kind of a. In a kind of structured way, we say, oh, now it's going to be the spiritual time, or the the intuition time.

And we just focused on, workshop mode where we're like ticking boxes. And that's when it's hard. Yeah, exactly. Yes. When we are just like, okay, five minutes go. And we forget that what we're trying to do. is to come out of the go go mode. So that's a big danger indeed.

**Bertrand:** Yeah, but you can see sometimes, and I'm sure you experienced that. You are with your mental model you are running the workshop and people sometimes are creating something you didn't expect. And you're not sure it's a good way to, to go and to deal with the objectives of the work. Two options.

You stop them. No, it's not what you have to do. Why not? But I'm not sure it's the best way to do. The other way. Is to step back, look at them, feel what is going on, and then you are able to do, if you have to go to see just few people and ask just the good question to add them maybe to rethink what they are doing, et cetera, et cetera.

Or asking to hold the group something. And then you are not in a motel. way of thinking, but more in a spiritual an intuitive way of speaking. You listen, what's runs in your body and in your spirit. There 

**Daniele:** is one failure that I'd like to share too. Because it, it told me one thing, which is so I did that in a setting, which was more kind of a church.

So an organization, which has a religious background and therefore bringing in spirituality was And very easy thing, for me there. And one thing that me thinking, Oh, this, these are very spiritual people, so they are much more spiritual than me, so I had high expectations, and I came in and and I use the thing that I still use, which was a thing where.

I asked people to have a bit of a calm time which in that case, because it's religious and it's Christian was called prayer. But in other settings, I would have called it just, a silence and meditative time. And basically then, I asked people, oh, okay, what did you learn from that session?

And there was nothing, and I was like, Oh, but that's not normal, because these are spiritual people, they should, from my understanding, they are religious, so they might have a link with God or something. And I was astonished. I was like, Oh, okay. So this is not the recipe, this is not always it's not an input output thing.

And then it changed my way of how I'm framing these exercises. Instead of framing them as tasks. Saying we're going to do this and then we're going to have inspiration and then it's going to work and it's going to be awesome. More as moments of relaxation, of coming down. And if something shows up, we're thankful for it.

If nothing shows up, We're thankful for the relaxation moment. And just to reframe that, because for me, it was oh, these are very religious people, it should happen, how can pastors not receive something from God, and it was a very good slap on the face, for me to, oh, okay, even very religious people don't have, Spiritual moments like that, it's something that, it happens, it doesn't happen, you don't choose it.

And I think this is also a kind of a lovely failure that I'd like to share which brought me to this. It's not a task, 

**Bertrand:** it's 

**Daniele:** an opportunity. And in an opportunity, some things happen, something, sometimes things don't happen and, but there's still some, there's still something to get out of it, which is at least a relaxation.

And 

**Bertrand:** Very interesting, your example. I realized that maybe if I, one day, I have a group asking me for service design activities, and this group is a majority of people who practice meditation or religion, no matter. Maybe I won't use these tricks with spirituality. Maybe I will push them maybe more in theatrical experiences because we can imagine that they're not used to practice this.

If they're used to practice meditation, if I ask them to close their eyes and to feel their inner self, it will be easy for them. So what we go out of that may be very good things. I don't say it won't be good, but if I want to push them a little bit, yeah, maybe I will choose other activities that are not they don't practice every day.

Why not? 

**Daniele:** I love the provocation of saying it's maybe in the most spiritual places. Where we should not bring spirituality in the game and maybe kind of other things. And it's in the less spiritual places where spirituality has a bit, a big thing that it can bring because it's different. It's new and it will bring this virgin way of thinking.

Where if you're a very spiritual person that's already in the norm of what you're doing and you're used to it. So that's a, I love the provocation. It's as one of these counterintuitive truth, that that you can play with. Love it. I'm gonna give obviously the space also for people who are watching us to ask their questions.

In the chat, don't hesitate to ask your questions. We have a bit of a smaller crew today than what you expected. We're used, so we might have a little bit less question, but I have still so many things that I want to know from you. So it's so it's going to be lovely. Whilst, while we, so when you were in the shower this morning, I might ask you this, if I might ask you this question, when you were in the shower this morning and you prepared for, usually what happens in the shower, at least for me, it's like my mind goes on and it's Oh, calendar mode, oh, I have to pick up the kit.

Then I have to make this happen. Oh, I should not forget about that. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there's an expectation setting moment. So you see, my showers are very Swiss German, maybe you had a moment in your shower where you were oh, I'm going to have this session about spirituality. Was there an expectation that you had, or a thought that you had that we should cover now? 

**Bertrand:** It's not especially in my shower. Usually I try Because the first time when I wake up is like you, the schedule of the day, and maybe the day after that day.

And I just wake up, I just want to stay a little bit centered. During, at the end of my shower, I take just a time, a short time, we have to take care of water, a short time where I just feel the water on my body and go on the ground. And I use it for my feet, my legs, and to be to be rooted. With the, with the, yeah.

The earth. So that's the answer for the shower u usually I try to do what we can call meditation. I take a time to feel and to to imagine and to receive information of my model, but also for, from other information I can get. No matter from where it, it comes, but I use it, uh, if I brew tea sometimes you have shapes, you have colors, and it during time it change.

So I use it like that. And when I'm quite clear about that, I'm able to write the program and to imagine what I can do. But also, if it doesn't work, what are the substitutes I can use? I try to work like this, and usually it helps to be more confident. With that practice it works well. I 

**Daniele:** Love it.

For people who say, oh, this Bertrand guy, obviously, they say it in an English way, Bertrand this Bertrand guy. Difficult word. Absolutely. They say, ah he has a practice which is inspiring, are there resources for that? that you would recommend to people who say, Oh, this is interesting.

I'd like to dabble in that. Do you have books tools, frameworks authors, podcasts, whatever that you recommend for people who want to explore that side of the world a little bit more? 

**Bertrand:** Yeah, I think I would Augusto Boal. He's from South America and he invented a way to contact people, especially poor people.

at the time because he was supposed to get a lot of information about their behavior their way of living. And he realized that when you come with your kind of superiority of a city man dressed and you arrived in, in a farm, you have a problem.

It's it's obvious, we know that, we, there is so many studies that, that prove that, but he experienced that, and he realized that he has a simple way to help them to be more confident during this relation. and to speak a lot and to give a lot of insights and he did it with the theater approach so i could send you the name of the book but He wrote two, two very good books.

One about the invention of in French, it's Théâtre Forum. I don't know. So it's very interesting and there is a lot of small activities you can perform regarding your audience. And so I brought some activities in my practice. And sometimes make them make it evolve but some are very good to, to use.

Like that. Another author Adam Lawrence, he's from Germany. I'm sure a lot of people know that, that great guy. And I practice many times with him. And he is a great facilitator.

He also use theater, but also, uh, psychological exercise, and he creates something totally crazy when he animates a group. And I love that guy, he know that and I'm very ready to go back in Germany and do other session because he's great for that.

And some of that psychological exercise are linked to spirituality. So it helps also to create this vision and why we are talking today about that subject. 

**Daniele:** All right. And Is there, so we talked a lot about the workshop side of these things from the kind of, so I assume there will be people listening, who are workshop guys like us and who say which ones could I try, which kind of exercises could you, could I, so there is one exercise, you mentioned two exercises already, which is like this feeling the ground turning thing.

There is another thing, which is just stopping and feeling, et cetera. There is another one, so we have a third already, which is like going outside, and getting some fresh air stuff. Are there kind of other tactical things where you say, oh, these are very tiny things that you could try as exercises, if you feel it's the right moment, obviously and if you prepared it well and, and made it, work well with your workshop setting.

Do you have other exercises in mind? 

**Bertrand:** Yes one comes also from the psychology it's called family constellation. I'm not sure, constellation familial in French. A way, so it's used when, in, in a family of an individual was troubles with others. And you have to play.

Roles to understand what is linked between people where are the troubles, where are the friction points. And you are not obliged to, to get the real people around you. So maybe you have a trauma and then you are in the middle of the cycle and some people you sometimes don't know have a role.

Your mother, your father, and they ask to play just some beginning stuff and practices. It's sometimes to learn it, but it's quite difficult. It's really crazy because people who don't, they don't know each other and they are able to speak like, for example, the father, who to say some things very hurting that the mother said, but the person in the center never mentioned that.

So some magical things happen in this exercise. So if we forget the psychological and personal aspects. If you transpose it to profession, it's very interesting because it works. You are in trouble with the organization, with the process. How do you manage that? In the same way. You have people around you.

It could be the real people. But the most interesting thing is even if you have the guy that is maybe a part of the trouble, you will attribute another role and you make them happy. Play all the roles and to understand and here also, it happens crazy things and it's beautiful. Sometimes feel emotions, strong emotions when I realized what is going on in the group.

Sometimes people doesn't realize totally what, what is happening. But yeah, it's a good a good tool if you want to experience that that spiritual thing. 

**Daniele:** Absolutely. And it's a very empathic exercise also, it's like putting yourself in the shoes of someone else it's I've seen that being done, which is very funny.

They a guided an exercise like that where he took specific figures of the specific types of customers they had, and so he said, oh, so now you will react to this project that we are doing now. As Billy, the pissed up guy. The kind of ones. 30 years old, blah, blah, blah, blah, it gives a bit of context.

And I thought, now, Billy, what do you have to say? And then he plays that, that thing. So it's very interesting because it's an empathy moment, where you realize, okay, oh yeah we have a blind spot. We forgot about Billy Billy there, but at the same time, it's a very fun thing, because obviously, Grumpy Billy played by, the most sweet girl in the, in, in the thing.

Has a funny quality to it, which then also lightens up the space in a way that you are able to hear the very harsh critic that a customer would say about this, but in a way that you're can receive it quite easily because, it's played, it's a bit exaggerated, but still you get the learning where you say, Oh yeah.

I think there was a good point here that Bill is making, and you can also extract that. So definitely this is a very impressive exercise. 

**Bertrand:** And it's interesting because the person that, that's gets the role of that guy. We can realize that he don't know him well, usually.

And because he's in an organization he have to think positively about the organization, but he know things. And with that exercise, he's able to explain the things truly with no filters. Because he's authorized to do that, because it's not him, but he's coding. And that's just a perfect moment. 

**Daniele:** I love 

**Bertrand:** it, love it.

So I see Sorry. That's just a way to put your mask off for some minutes or hours. 

**Daniele:** Yeah, I love that idea that sometimes to put the mask off, we have to provide another one, where we say, Hey, just play with this one for a few seconds, then we take that mask off and we put another, but there is still a moment, of transition where we see the face, it's a very interesting image, and why not be moving the mask?

**Bertrand:** And what happens inside you when your mask is just off and before putting it on? the one we are asking you to wear. 

**Daniele:** There is always a great quality in our chats and I'm so happy that today we could do that also for this setting. I think this is also something that first of all, I'm extremely thankful also because you reacted to my invitation quite vastly and in a very in a very gentle and and playful and and helpful way.

So thanks a lot for that, but I recognize also this. And I think that's the biggest quality that you have each time we talk together, we go in places that, that I find especially interesting, because it feels to me like we're bridging two spaces, that often are very separated. And it's quite interesting because what feels natural to you is sometimes new to me and what feels natural to me is quite new for you.

And it's like this Oh, you do this. Oh, I do that. Oh, and there is like this little aha moments that I really enjoyed. So we explored a lot today. 

## Closing Words: A Call to Grounded Practice

**Daniele:** Is there a last thought and encouragement or a call to action that you'd like to leave to the community? After this session, 

**Bertrand:** maybe one point because it's sometimes be tricky to speak about spirituality or intuition just dig into yourself.

If you want to practice this. Because you find it interesting and be sure that's the way you want to go, or you want to try things. And then see what are your roots about spirituality. And once again, for those who are just joining us, it's not about religion, spirituality, who you are, what is your spirit, your inner self, et cetera.

And if you align with that. I think people are ready to try and to experience this. 

**Daniele:** I love it. Thank you so much for that reminder of the importance of being grounded yourself. I think before you offer something you have to be sure that you're okay giving that gift. That's like the reminder that you're giving, which says, you're going to give a gift.

Are you sure you want to give it? And from where does it come? And do you feel okay with the place from where that gift is coming? I think this is a Ah, lovely reminders. 

Once again Bertrand, it's been a lovely time shared with you, and I want to remind people, this is all volunteer work. So thank you so much for doing that effort for the community. I really appreciate 

**Bertrand:** it. You're welcome. 

**Daniele:** Thank you so much. so much, mate. And have a lovely end of the day. 

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