Key insights

1. The Body Thinks Beyond the Brain

Choreographic thinking is an experiential approach that accesses the thinking capacity and knowledge of the entire body, not just the brain. Our bodies store experiences creating a form of knowledge that includes both instinct and tacit knowledge that cannot be deleted like cognitive memory.

2. Enabling Constraints Create Freedom

The method uses “enabling restrictions”, tasks that are simple and clear enough that you cannot go wrong with them (like "go fast in one direction, go slow in the other"). These constraints paradoxically create freedom and safety, allowing participants to feel free to explore without fear of failure, unlike open-ended instructions that would cause people to freeze.

3. Safe Space is Non-Negotiable

Creating a safe space is the foundation of choreographic thinking. This includes: setting clear boundaries, allowing people to choose their level of participation (observer or participant), avoiding documentation that makes people feel watched, and establishing a binding contract about expectations and limits. Without this safety, the entire method fails.

4. Movement Builds Trust Through Biology

When people move together in a room, their bodies produce dopamine—the trust hormone. This biological response creates a foundation for collaboration that verbal communication alone cannot achieve.

5. Human Capacity in the AI Era

As artificial intelligence takes over cognitive brain work, choreographic thinking represents uniquely human capacity that cannot be replicated by machines. The method focuses on experiential knowledge, performative thinking, and bodily impulses—skills that will become increasingly valuable as we move beyond the information age into what might be called the “social age”.

Automated transcript

### Introduction to Choreographic Thinking

welcome everybody to this new event around Choreographic Thinking for Service Design with our lovely, brilliant guest, Katrin Kolo. Today the goal is to discover the art and practice of choreographic thinking for Service Design with organizational choreographer and creative strategist.

Katrin Kolo, but who is Katrin?

### Katrin Kolo's Background and Journey

Katrin is a senior professional with 20 plus years of C-level experience in the field of consulting, organizational and strategic management, as well as artistic direction and co-creation.

It's really my pleasure to have. Here on stage, someone who is used to the stage and who will be able to teach us a lot.

Again, a big thank you to you, Katrin, for joining us and officially the stage is now yours.

Thank you, Daniele. Thank you for the invitation and thank you all for taking this time.

### Defining Choreographic Thinking

I. will just give you a first definition of choreographic thinking. If you just go one slide further, what is choreographic thinking? It's many things. I try to wrap it in two phrases. Choreographic thinking is an approach. It's an experiential approach to access the thinking capacity and the knowledge of the entire body.

So not only our brain can think. Our whole body thinks and knows, and with this approach or with this method, we can train our non-cognitive human skills. So they're really human. And that for this approach is human centered. It is highly exclusive and it is movement based.

### The Evolution of Choreographic Thinking

Where does this come from?

Daniele. I'm not the youngest, so you can see that from the timeframe I started my dance studies when I was four years old. So since then, that's 50 years I've been developing this approach, I would say, and it's all captured in my body. I've started with dance studies then later on economic studies.

Then I started my dancer and choreographer career at Bavarian State of Opera Munich while I was still studying economics. And while I was then later on working as a management consultant. During that time, I realized together in a discussion with a client, with a management client that, so I tried to find out what's that and I didn't immediately find out, but later on, and then I continued. After the consulting, I went into the direction of artistic institutions and got some leadership experience. And then later on I tried to wrap all of this into my transdisciplinary studies. And what happened during COVID was that I finished my artistic direction career.

And I started something completely new, but at the same time, I went back to my beginnings. I started a new sport, which is called pump foiling. And it's a highly physical training, but it is also highly mental training. And through that training, I experienced a new, how the mental and the body experience exchange and develop each other.

From that, I decided to start a freelance career. That was last year actually, and that's how I met Daniella and I wanted to pick up all these experience from the past 50 years in a way and put it together. And just a couple of weeks ago I became Vice World Champion in pump foiling. So that is also an end, I would say, in this career, but.

### Choreographic Thinking in Practice

So if you click so I started with choreographic, thinking of working with it somewhere in between my management consulting career and then my leadership career in the artistic ins institutions. And it started off if you go a lot by transition coaching for dance artists, because I saw that dance artists needed new.

Careers after their dance careers to earn money and to earn a living, and I could see their potentials, how they could use it in other fields than the arts. Then let's go further. Then I was a leader myself and I used my experience from the dance and choreographic training in my leadership, and I made from that.

I made a per a leadership performance training for leaders to use things we use on stage and we are trained for, and that is, for example, on stage. There's always going something wrong, but we cannot talk to each other and find a solution. We have to find a solution, the fraction of a second without talking.

And we do that because the audience always gets high quality on stage. You don't see the mistakes we do and the things that go wrong. And when the orchestra misses a couple of bars, I, that happened to me. We had to just switch all of the things and it happened, and we finished the performance.

This is a special kind of leadership. It's an organic leadership, it's a dynamic leadership, and you, we are trained in that. And I made a training out of that for non-artistic leaders. So you can go on Daniella, from these two experiences I did before I started to go a bit more into artistic research and try to model.

An ideal organization where everyone feels free in a safe space and can move and develop its own potential and all this potential of all the wonderful people involved, organization get together and let the organization bloom. And so that was meant to be an artistic project, which was followed by another artistic project.

Which was around the influence of opera into the everyday life of people and the influence of everyday life of people into opera. And then, okay, so that took a while until then, I wrapped it all up and with my experience from the pump foiling sport, and I, dig a bit deeper and I felt okay, let's wrap it up.

All my projects I've done over the life, it's, and let's crystallize this method I always use. And I gave it the name Choreographic Thinking. So the name was born last year, but the method was born 50 years ago, I would say, even if I didn't know it. And after 25 years when I talked to my customer. In management consulting.

He said, listen, Karine, you have something which is valuable, but you are too early. So now 25 years later, I think I'm at the right time because we're in the era of artificial intelligence. So we don't need so much brain work any anymore. We need our human capacities that are locked in our bodies. That are not only in our brain, we can give the brain work to the AI and we can now concentrate on the experiential knowledge of our bodies, of the performative knowledge and of the performative thinking which I call choreographic thinking.

And this is related then to Service Design. I would understand Service Design as the design of experiences. So if we design experiences, we should know about experiences and we should know how to design experiences. And choreographic thinking is in a way the knowledge of designing experiences. So I've been talking already a lot.

Let's have a look what this could look like.

### Workshop Demonstration

A choreographic thinking workshop. I will comment a little bit. So these are people that don't know each other. They came into this room about half an hour before they started this. They got only one task from me and they immediately started to perform.

The whole performance goes about 10 minutes and. In the beginning, they started all together without me telling them to start. They started by themselves and after 10 minutes they stopped by themselves without anyone telling them that they should come to an end. They just felt it. We can switch a bit further.

You see there is a rather static moment and then happens

a little solo, which is finds a follower that repeats the solo in a different variation.

And I go out and it still doesn't stop, and you see the lady in the front. She keeps the performance going. And then when we switch to 5 45.

The lady is now in the right back and see what happens Now.

It's all in silence. People didn't speak to each other.

You see here, this is a very interesting pattern that I see often in the workshops, how someone just all of a sudden gets in a leading position and people follow the person.

Is clear. She was the leader, so they didn't just follow her they really follow her through action as well.

### Audience Q&A

can we have a short moment of that you, if you want to ask a question or if you want to leave a comment, just a very short moment,

Manuel.

Thank you Katrin. It right from the start, it's very inspiring and I like that notion of you're really working on the experiential skills of the body. And to me refer to a mythology, which is the power of human beings. And it's very interesting what you said, that at some point they will, when they're connected, they will stop at the right moment together.

So I've seen that and I find it very interesting because, i'm curious to hear about the next part of your talk, but you're really working on that notion that has been denigrated for so long because the brain was important, that we're animals, in fact, and there's a lot of potential in being connected just through the body.

So ju I'm really curious to hear about the rest of the. Thank you.

Yeah, that's what I, what comes after the information age, after the artificial intelligence age? I think it's maybe the social age. And because if we don't get social, I don't think we will survive. Truly social, but this is my opinion, my per personal opinion.

I got a message here in the chat.

What we're trying to determine by doing this exercise, perhaps finding the best pathway through a space before you put in the sidewalks or hallways?

That could be, yeah, that could be actually in this case. We didn't define an overall goal. This is very often what I do in these workshops.

Everyone has their own question that they want to answer, but they perform together and they get answers from themselves, but also through the performance of the others. So every person can have, a different question, and that can be so wide away from each other, but it's, this is the thing I often work with.

I always work with groups even so people work on individual questions, tasks or whatever they want to find a solution. And in, in this case, there was no overall task anyway. Maybe is there another person who wants to ask something? Then I ask you, what do you think was the task I gave them to do?

Do you have an idea?

Yes.

Like to walk and at some point each time you cross someone to to get your eyes connected and then to continue or.

No, actually it's there is an idea. It seems that the human instinct is more vivid through the body rather than the mind. Yes, the instinct plays a big role in this, the reflex and the impulse.

The without a thinking, so the body is quicker in behaving than in think. And Heidi suggests that I ask them to find their position in space. That is indeed a question, a task I always give at some point in the in, in, in the workshops, but it's usually not the first because this is you need some experience to find your space.

What does that mean? So the task is very simple. It, I give, it's important. I give tasks that you don't have to think about. This is in one direction of the room. You go fast and in the 90 degree direction of it, you go slow. That was it. And it's a very simple task. You don't have to think about it. It's so clear and it's still a.

What is slow and what is fast, and it's up to you to turn around. It's up to you to choose the movement. It's up to you whether you want to bump into someone or you want to avoid people. And there is the other rule. You can always decide at any moment whether you want to be observing or participating.

And if you want to observe, you can choose the space that you like. What I call these tasks or the yeah the exercises I give, I try to formulate them as enabling restrictions. That's a expression that was defined by Brian Masumi. He wrote, I think half a book about it now. I dunno how much, but he used it in at first.

And enabling restrictions are tasks that. You cannot go wrong with, and then you will feel free. So if I would tell the people, 30 people that don't know each other, they are the first time in this space, they don't have an overall path to fulfill because they don't even have any task together. They don't even know each other.

And if I will tell them, go ahead and just move wherever you want in the space and do what you want, they would get stuck. They would not move at all. I think some would go crazy maybe, but most of them would just, nothing would much happen and people would feel very much uneasy. And so that would be an not enabling task.

And so this is choreographic thinking is working with enabling tasks. That's a very big thing. And that's something. That also helps creating a safe space.

### The Importance of Safe Spaces

So that's something very important. You saw it, we filmed the observer, the security camera. People were informed that we do that, and they knew from this little camera you cannot see their faces.

So they were sure they're not filmed or zoomed in. They knew this little frame and no one can know who it is. And we did that because otherwise when you film or take photos or even, so even only a protocol a note taker in the room can destroy the safe space. People feel intimidated or cannot go on moving.

So these are all aspects of this method. And of course, I, a lot of time I went wrong. I forgot something, or we did some photos and it just, it destroyed everything. This is really it's so powerful when you lose the safe space, you lose everything and it, it leaves a very bad pace at yet for everyone.

So let's go back the question: Do you distinguish between instinct and tacit knowledge?

No, I would say not. I would say both of these forms of knowledge are in the body.

They're saved in the body, and I don't ask whether you're born with it or whether you have gained it throughout your life. The importance is it's there and. I think most of you know that the brain knowledge, the cognitive knowledge, is actually deleted all the time. 95% of the informations we get have to be deleted.

Otherwise, we have a overload in the brain and the brain couldn't work anymore. But in the body, we are like trees. We, it's all inside. It's all these rings. Every year leaves a ring in our body in a way, all the. Experiences we do throughout the life. And it starts when you are in the womb of your mother.

All this is still in our bodies. That also explains a lot of traumas we carry through our whole lives, unfortunately. And but it also in the positive way we can get, we could use that. There is another:

As designer as how can we become more physically aware of movement and rhythm, not just watching others move, but actually feeling it ourselves?

Do it. There is no other way than do it. That's also reason. When people come to the workshops, I do sometimes companies. Asked me to do a workshop, and then of course, it's even more difficult to create the safe space because in companies everyone feels like, oh, I'm observed by my chef or by my team.

And but we usually achieve that. And I always ask them to decide. Whether they want to observe or take part, but I make them also. I say it plays a role and they participate even if they leave the room now because they have one spin there and they will leave an empty space. The presence has been in the beginning and when they go out, that leaves something.

It changes something in the room, and also people. Coming at a different time. I don't say late because they're never late. They're always on the right time, they're on their right time. And when people enter the room, it also creates something, A new social construction. A new social choreography, and so you are in it.

And even if you don't move. You are part of it and you influence the movement of the others. And when you become aware of that, it might, it becomes so easy to move yourself because you're part of it anyhow. And I had one participant actually in the performance you saw, just saw, she said, I chose a chair in the middle to observe, and all of a sudden it, I got moved.

Something inside moved me and that's exactly what we should these impulses to feel them. This is not that we always have them, but we don't feel them anymore. We're trained to not feel them actually, because we are in a meeting. You sit down, you don't get up, and I just recently did a workshop to do choreographies for everyday life and especially the meeting.

Situation. We played it, we sit, we sat around the table and that's it. Now move when you feel you need to move. Just move. We talk about whatever, about the weather and stuff, but then just do movement. And even if you just do this, oh, ah, or you get up or you go under the table or whatever, you sit on the table, do something, and, we said you, you can also find the context for this movement. If you wanna bend down, let just something drop, and you have a reason to bend down and pick the pen up that you just drop down. But you can actually move and you can get out of your uneasiness in the meeting, or you just go to the toilet if you need to, easy, find a context for your movement that you need.

But first of it is you have to feel. The movement that you need in that moment. And I think the basic of my workshop is really in the beginning people to let the people feel what kind of movement the body would like to do.

So human centered, that's click clear.

### The Choreographic Process

The choreographic process, it's a very generic process. We know this process from design thinking all from other creative processes, and from whatever we plan in our life, we do a preparation.

Then we. Zoom in, we get warm together, and then we do a little research and like what I call choreography. Here is the moment where we put the pieces together. We call it also in dance, we call it assembly work, or we even call it composition, but generally we call it's, this is what called the choreography and the performance is a kind of a, it's the.

The end product, but it can be also like a Prototype. When we do in a rehearsal, we do a final performance or yeah we always do regularly, we do performance and tests and then of course there's a reflection, a bigger reflection. At the end, so the process doesn't go only from top to down.

It goes also from down to up, and it jumps in between and you can leave out some of the process steps sometimes. It's rather a process box than a really proper process where one field has to come after the other. So the next thing is. That, and that's, I think, very special of this method.

And we don't use that usually, that we, in all other workshops when we do it together, we don't do nonverbal sections, nonverbal section that are not cognitive where no one thinks about anything, but we just do and move. We get movement, exercise, and then we verbalize, we go back into movement, exercise and we verbalize and all decisions.

All decisions are based on the individual coherence. I call it coherence is maybe not the right translation, but it's very difficult to find the right word. In German, we say, so when it's fields. It feels coherent for you. I don't say appropriate because appropriate is something we learned.

It's something you might not even feel easy with, but it feels in the moment right thing for you to do. And so the decision to finish a performance like we just saw is based on. Everyone in the room feels that this performance is finished, otherwise it would go on and it's really the individual and be, of course there is an interplay between the individuals.

But it's really, it's not an overall, and that's why I say it's also, it's not hierarchic. It's, there's no hierarchy in it, and it can change any moment. And one very important aspect. I work with the reflexes or the impulses. We have that. So that we cancel the brain in a way.

### Accessing Bodily Impulses

We try not to access the brain at all.

We try really to access the bodily impulses and and not filter them through any brain work.

You get through a work that you're not used to do. You get other solutions than through work you're used to do every day? Of course it changes an organizational culture if you do with your whole company a movement workshop, communication changes.

Through the shared experience. That can also be when you go mountain and climbing with your team. Of course, then communication afterwards is a bit different. It trains the non-cognitive skills like we said. It's always a lot of fun. It's always motivating for the people.

### Building Trust Through Movement

And what it definitely builds is trust, because what we know.

When people move together in the room then the hormone dopamine is is produced by the body, and this is the trust hormone. This is the hormone that is produced in the babies and the mother when they're breastfeeding. So when you have a meeting and it's a difficult meeting maybe you just move a bit.

In the room, maybe you, A simple thing is don't put the chairs yet at the tables. Have the chairs piled up in the corner of the room, and when everyone comes into the room, you welcome them and you say, okay, let's now take our chairs and sit around together. Maybe we don't even, we want to sit around the desks.

Maybe we want to sit around in a different way. And this creates already a movement and that builds trust between the different partners. Which can be completely different base of starting off a meeting.

### Creating a Safe Space

And of course the experience of a safe space. A lot of people don't even know what that is.

Unfortunately, in our world, this is something what we not necessarily learn at home. Not everyone is grown up in a safe space. And throughout my workshops I realized that how. Few people actually have had safe spaces at home. And so for some people it's the first time, especially when it's in the work in their work environment, that they feel safe.

They feel they can be however they are, and they're valued for who they are. And it doesn't matter how they behave and what they say. Everything is valuable and, and it'll not be manipulated or it'll not be abused against them. And this is a very new experiences for a lot of people. And that opens up completely new dis possibilities.

### Motivation and Organizational Benefits

The advantages that I see, maybe you, there's maybe also disadvantages and also things it's valuable and that's my aim always for the individual and for the group. And that's part of the motivation game. If you just do something for your organization, if a meeting or a workshop is done to make your organization better, it does.

It's not so made motivating. If you have the feeling, oh, it's also something for me and I can work on my things as well. That gives you a lot and it motivates you much more to participate and to bring things in. It can reveal and most of the time it reveals hidden and unconscious potential of the individual video, but also of the group or of the organization.

It's an extremely fast process and it includes the spatial and the dynamic and the interpersonal aspects, which are very often not focused in other workshop methods. It delivers long lasting experiences because they are saved in the bodies. They're not forgotten anymore. People who participated will carry that throughout their lives and can always access it.

### Non-Hierarchical and Inclusive Workshops

Again, it's non-hierarchical. It's inclusive. You can have completely paralyzed people in a wheelchair in the room, and just by their presence. They contribute and they make they contribute to the solutions, to the ideas that are created in the room. And it cannot be substituted by artificial intelligence.

### The Future of Human Capacity

So I think, if we think about the future of our book and we have the feeling a lot of our jobs will be gone because they're not necessary anymore about artificial intelligence, I think it's now the time to think about what is our human capacity. And I think it lies in our movement knowledge. It now it lies in our bodies that have a thinking capacity that computers will never have.

And so this is my main point especially for the momentum. Why this method now? I think even so I used it for almost 25 years. I think now is the momentum to revive it and to bring it out a bit more.

### Practical Tips for Workshops

What I just wanted to repeat, if you ever do a workshop like that, be very careful with documentation and rely on the documentation that happens in the bodies of the participants. So if you want to use choreographic thinking. Yourself. It's extremely important. I repeat it a bit too much maybe, but it's really, the safe space is key.

What I do is before I even do the things that I have there, people have a set space and a set time. They know in which space this is happening and they know how long it'll go, so what time it's over, and, then in this space, there is always this rule and I keep on reminding them. Act in any moment in such way that feels coherent to you only to you.

You don't have to think what might be good for the group or what you don't think about the influence you have on the group. Just feel what is for you the right thing in the moment, and feel it. Don't think, feel it, and then. Act in such a way, and that can mean that you step out and go out of the room.

You don't have to tell anyone, and you can come back any moment. You don't have to tell anyone, or you leave forever or you sit down or you go in the corner and read a book. You do. What is the thing for you to do? I always ask for the expectations and for the limits, and we write them down and it's.

Binding contract of all people present, what should happen in this timeframe, in this space and what mustn't happen. And sometimes people say, example, this is a very usually example. They say, oh yes, I want to dance. I dance should happen. And then the other ones say, no, not at all. I, ugh, I hate dance. So it mustn't happened that we dance.

And I say, okay, both is right and. We see what happens if one person feels like dancing, we let this person dance. And if the others don't wanna dance, they don't dance. So everything has, its, has its, how do you say lation, but it's important to put that, I forgot it in one workshop and it it, we couldn't work.

We couldn't work. It was the worst workshop I've ever had. So this is everyone knows where the limits of the others are and what the expectations of the people are. So this helps to create this safe space. And we signed that together. And then what I already explained is this enabling constraints.

And one of the first I always give is choose yourself in which position you want to be. In the workshop, and you may change this at any moment, so you cannot go wrong with that. This is really a constraint or it's a task, but you cannot never be wrong. And then very simple exercises, like I told you, go fast in one direction, go slow in the other direction.

It's very explicit and it's an enabling constraint. And I asked the people not to gesture and to grimace. If you allow that, it becomes a theater play. And the people don't take each other serious and they start to play roles. They're not themselves anymore and they are overacting. And when they smile or start giggling or greening, this is a sign of, we do that.

I always, I love a lot. This is my nervous and. I have to get it out somehow. So I smile a bit too lot too much maybe when I talk. But we want to take each other serious and we want to take ourselves serious. And when we make a serious face, we do that. And people, when they, I just remind them when they starts.

And then there's some giggles and say, please remember yourself. Take yourself serious. And please don't giggle or smile. Too much if you can. And and all of a sudden the atmosphere becomes very dense almost. People start feeling the themselves and the others. And when we have done the exercise very quickly, without any break, immediately start verbalizing.

So you. Also the verbalizing is not filtered by the brain. And I usually ask things like, what surprised you? Please say each of you one word. And I also say if they go in order or if one thing I say. To include another movement. I say if you said you would touch one of the other people who should say the next word.

So you pass on the word by a movement in touching someone else. And if you don't wanna say anything or you don't have to say anything, say the word nothing. This is a way of avoiding the silence and sometimes a bit painful moments because we don't know. Does the person not want to say anything? Do they need more time to think?

What is it, why they're silent? And if they can say nothing, they have said something. It's okay. And so these are. The inputs I can give you, if you wanna try something yourself, just be aware.

### Handling Emotional Responses

And this is what we also said in the beginning is movement is collected or movement experience I collected through all the life and I can sometimes be traumatic.

Associated with traumatic moments in life. And some people don't even know about these moments. So that's why the golden rule is so important. And I ask the people, whenever you feel you don't feel well anymore in this room, leave the room without any problem. Because I had once a man in my workshops and he had a very, he realized throughout the workshop.

His memories of the military service came back and he felt completely uneasy. And since, since that workshop he told me. Then later after the workshop, I said, okay, I have to be careful. And I always advise the people, if you feel something strange and strange memories come up in your body or you feel not good, tell me if you need help or feel free to leave.

It's important. Yeah. This is something we are not in a therapeutical setting there. And, but we have to be careful when things pop out of the body and and to prepare people what to do in such a moment. I think that's very important. And not to be surprised if something like this happens, it hap doesn't happen.

I think from my side, this is was already a lot.

Thank you so much, Karin. I really appreciate all what you shared. As someone who runs a lot of workshops there was a lot of learning for me in. Things that I want to steal right away, which maybe don't have, which aren't yet in the choreographic thinking, but maybe are already elements, for example, one thing that I really like in your approach is the level of freedom you give, which we all sometimes lose in workshops, where telling people like you can be in an observer role and that's okay.

You can leave and that's okay. Which I think is quite a beautiful thing, to say if you're here because you want to be here. If you don't want to be here and want to check your emails, that's perfectly fine. Don't make as if you were here, but in your mind, you're like already making your to-do list.

That's okay. Leave, have a good time, do something else. And I think that's one thing that I found extremely strong. The other thing is this say nothing. The. Power of saying the word nothing to say I have nothing to say now, but it's by saying it, I still contributed it. And there is, the third thing that quite touched me quite strongly is that to think about the skills, the power that we have that can't be copied that easily by.

Other machines. And I think that's a quite a strong element in here. And the last thing maybe that I found quite interesting having, especially in the room, people who are quite strong in theatrical prototyping is the moment where you said, when are we in choreographic thinking and when are we playing roles?

And I think that's a quite interesting bit because we use a lot in Service Design. The let's put yourself in the role of this person, et cetera. And this I feel is choreography thinking comes a little bit before that where we say, let's just be ourselves. Without playing any role and learn from that.

And then maybe later in another process, we can then play roles and learn also through that play. I think that was a very rich, very very beautiful, learning experience for me as as I told you before I, I really was excited for this event and I'm sure for many people too.

### Q&A Session

I see that we have a few questions.

Can we do choreographic thinking all alone without the others? Should the others around us not be prepared about our reactions?

I think yes. I use choreographic thinking all the time when I need a solution. I think of the first. Movement, metaphor I have for the mo for the problem I have. For example, when I'm stuck, it's like I'm stepping on the place. I just get up and I step on the place and I observe my own body doing that until my body starts doing something different.

And either it's lifting the knees higher, or either it's hopping or either it's moving me somewhere. I start walking in the a. Or I want to start doing something with the, with my upper arms or whatever. I just observe my body, what it does for a certain time, and then I sit down and translate all the movements my body has produced back in onto my problem.

And so I use it for myself in a way. And it's I do it the same way. I give myself a little timeframe. Sometimes I set an alarm clock one or two minutes, so I'm not going forever and it's not going crazy. And, and sometimes I just say myself, okay, I have to move as long as I need. You know this kinda as, but I frame it for myself before I go and then I translate it back and say, okay, what did I observe?

And what kind of movements were there fast? Were this slow, did I. Did I need more of the body than the legs? Or, did it move me in space? What was the spatial component? And was, what was the story I told myself? So these are all the elements. I used to to solve all problems as well.

Thank you so much. I think we have. Still time for last one. Which is the question around:

How do you see the difference between choreographic thinking and something like body storming?

I am, I don't know exactly what is the framework of buddy storming. I guess there is a lot of similarities.

I I would say just from the word it's and so if you know what body storming is and if you have done a body storming workshop, you might tell me what the difference is and if there is, I dunno, for me is the translation work is a big work and it's always also the interplay of the individual and what is created with the group and when something is created for the group, what is created for the individual. I don't know whether this is also an integral part of body dorming or I think it's integral part of choreographic thinking.

May I suggest something by definition, by reading this body storming link that Peter suggested? It seems to me that what Kellogg suggest is more like connecting with our authentic self, with our authentic feelings while the other, the body stomach is about, eh.

Seeing ourself in the space and defining the space within defining ourselves within the space in order to create experiences. So the one, I think it focuses more on connecting with your real self. If if this could be differentiation. I dunno. Yeah.

Thank you so much, Heidi. Indeed. I think there is something quite powerful in that question.

And in the way you also answered it, Katrin and Heidi, which is this aspect of from many different places we arrive at. At some similar places too.

### Final Thoughts and Thank You

If you want to give back to Katrin because she gave a lot to you today. You can do a few things. Connect with her on LinkedIn. Suggest ideas for collaboration.

I know from Katrin that she's eager also to continue the conversation. And I'm sure that people who are used to workshop facilitation used to theatrical performances within Service Design would have a lot of fun working with Katrin.

Thank you so much, Katrin, for all that you shared with us. Thank you to all of you who joined us and I wish you a very beautiful evening. Thank you so much for joining. Thank you so much again, Katrin, and connect with Katrin.